Curse

Series · Apr 29, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Yes, if your build is bad, you will have trouble running it.

If by bad you mean "if your build is not minion master or SS spammer", then yes. You are correct.

riposte · Apr 29, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Mesmers:
I had a lot of fun in PvE with my mes, there was no need to buff him, thank you. It's not the char you want to use to play through a campaign for the first time, but great when you know what's coming. Remember which monster types were there, think up a counter build, pwnage.

The only reason I'd consider valid for a mesmer buff now is hard mode. Sure, mesmers do very well there if they bring backfire, empathy and spirit of failure, but that's terribly boring. And you can't do twitch interrupts there without a casting speed debuff, which was a lot of fun (IMHO) and a major mesmer primary advantage: no matter your build, you could almost always fit in an interrupt and stop key skills.
So if you'd want to introduce more powerful PvE-only casting speed debuffs, i'd like that (tho I don't know all balance implications) . And if you want more player mesmers rather than more hero mesmers, it might be a very good idea to buff the mesmer via player-only skills. Hero interupters already are recognized as useful due to AI reflexes.

Soul Reaping:
A nerf was waranted, the 5s rule is unelegant, I don't know a better way. What irks me is that the 2 cookie cutter builds (MM and SS) got their skills buffed in the process so they'd stay as viable as before (and SS got buffed by hard mode again), while everything else loses out. Blood, non-ss curses and non-minion death were hardly overpowered before and don't deserve the same hit to energy management as necs (ab-)using soul reaping to fuel their secondary.

rohlfinator · Apr 30, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

That is my question!?!?!??! I just do not understand the fascination in ANet to "lowering" things.

Balance can be achieved by "raising" things too.

It's easier to change one class than to change nine of them, would be my guess.

Not that I agree with this particular implementation, but if SR was in fact overpowered, it's a much better solution to rebalance one class against the other nine than to try to rebalance nine against the one.

(And if they had solved the problem by buffing every other class, it still would have looked unfair to necros. Pretty much a lose-lose situation.)

TabascoSauce · May 01, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

It's easier to change one class than to change nine of them, would be my guess.

Not that I agree with this particular implementation, but if SR was in fact overpowered, it's a much better solution to rebalance one class against the other nine than to try to rebalance nine against the one.

(And if they had solved the problem by buffing every other class, it still would have looked unfair to necros. Pretty much a lose-lose situation.)

SR was exploitable. Overpowered is level 28 and halved casting times and skill activation times. We as players do not get overpowered, we get exploitable. If anything was overpowered, then the community is pretty efficient at finding those things. For evidence, see all the new exploitable gimmicky builds of the month that ANet did not see from the start. This efficiency would have had teams of Necromancers running roughshod over PvE if that was the case, right? It did not happen.

There are a bunch of exploitable skills in all classes, they are that way because they have a stacking effect. When together they are greater than the sum of the parts, that is the basis of every gimmick build of the month.

If the exploit to SR is closed, say by way of making spirits only give a benefit if they are yours, or none altogether, then SR is suddenly not exploitable.

Problem solved, without having to re-calculate skill costs across the entire Necro class.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

mortis corpus · May 01, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I believe i saw this in another thread, that they were looking into the lessing of skill costs for some of the necro skills in exchange of this "nerf" I personally dont care for this nerf but am dealing with the change, what i still dont understand, is that they changed the cost for an elite "Flesh Golum" down to 10 where technically you can only have one at a time. and however "Animate Bone Fiend" which in my MM build is my primary devence is still hanging at 25 en for each i cast.
Now i understand there are some other skills that can help in that but personally i speak for atleast 3 necros in my guild when i say we would of kept the 15 for FG and lowered the bone fiend would of been a better option.
of this is IMHO

Numa Pompilius · May 01, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Mesmers are already quite useful in PvE

They're not useless, no, but of all my chars it's clearly the one which does the least amount of damage. Sure, I can make life miserable for one enemy with my mesmer before I run out of energy, but with my necro or my ele I can make the entire enemy *group* miserable, and have better energy management.
The main problem with mesmers is that they have no multi-target capability. I've always felt, and argued, that Spiteful Spirit should have been a mesmer skill, as it's basically the elite version of Empathy. Just that one skill would've turned everything around.

I have a year old mesmer I play from time to time, but I wouldn't make a new one. Mesmer is great as secondary class in PvE, but not so great as a primary.

It also depends a bit on where you are. Mesmers work a lot better in Prophecies and Nightfall than in Factions, where everything carries multiple hex removal skills _and_ will interrupt any cast longer than a second.

Sorry for rambling but I guess my point is that yeah, Mesmers need some AoE damage spells. Spiteful Spirit would be choice. Alternatively the spells should be 5 points cheaper across the board so the mesmer could spread the love around manually.

Snype · May 01, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

They're not useless, no, but of all my chars it's clearly the one which does the least amount of damage. Sure, I can make life miserable for one enemy with my mesmer before I run out of energy, but with my necro or my ele I can make the entire enemy *group* miserable, and have better energy management.
The main problem with mesmers is that they have no multi-target capability. I've always felt, and argued, that Spiteful Spirit should have been a mesmer skill, as it's basically the elite version of Empathy. Just that one skill would've turned everything around.

I have a year old mesmer I play from time to time, but I wouldn't make a new one. Mesmer is great as secondary class in PvE, but not so great as a primary.

It also depends a bit on where you are. Mesmers work a lot better in Prophecies and Nightfall than in Factions, where everything carries multiple hex removal skills _and_ will interrupt any cast longer than a second.

Sorry for rambling but I guess my point is that yeah, Mesmers need some AoE damage spells. Spiteful Spirit would be choice. Alternatively the spells should be 5 points cheaper across the board so the mesmer could spread the love around manually.

I never thought about spiteful spirit like that. It would make a lot of sense on the mesmer side, where an aoe skill is much needed.

assassin_of_ni · May 01, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

need aoe ward-like skills for mesmers that implement skills like backfire and empathy with chaos storm. like a war once up they are argueably annoying and some people think of them as over powered. Of course just an idea but a large aoe (nearby range or so) where all foes in that area take -- dmg while attacking....while another one causes -- dmg each time they cast or even while casting. another one kinda like a well where everyone in the area this spell was cast sufferes - however much degen etc etc. that would make mesmers useful in support and still dealing dmg. my main problem with a lot of mes skills in pve (since right now i happen to be working on my mes) is the recharge time of the useful dmg dealing skills. energy burn, energy surge, spiritual pain, etc. 20-30 seconds is long when your sitting there spamming wastrels worry just to feel like your actually doing something useful. i was also thinkig skills that will actually screw with the controls of a character. i.e. a hex that reverses the controls on a characters movement (pressing up or w will cause them to walk backwards same with strafing and walking backwards) i mean...how many warriors would find that annoying against a kiting monk. of course its a hex easilly overcome by just selecting a target and pressing space to auto run, but this is obviously not an option if your a monk and trying to kite a tiger sin and a cripslash shock war. mesmers are essentially supposed to be illusionists so why not give them illusions n such. in one of the stories at tahnakkai temple the mesmer (whos name i dont recall) made a cloud of illusion that made herself and her squad look like an army and fend of an attacking force. (yeah i spent the 5 minutes to read the lore....work is boring -_-) sooo why not have a skill that replicates yourself to have dopplegangers that follow you around...soo basically to even do damage to you theyde hafta hit the real you and pretty much just guess which one of the illusions is actually an illusion. that kinda weird trippy stuff. also why not a spell thats the opposite of shadow stepping....a spell that returns an enemy to the spot they were at -- seconds ago or a random spot in radar range (but not into enviormental effects such as lava and ice and whatnot)...now that would make mesmers fun...er.....funner to play and even feasible in HA as a staple.

Mortius Madius · May 03, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

I did not care for the nerf to Soul Reaping, but not for any of the reasons I have read so far on these forums.

I didn't care for it, because I don't like walking around with the word 'nerfed' on my forehead.

In a strange way, I feel violated. One of the core fundamentals of what makes a Necromance a Necromance, is Soul Reaping. Now, I'm half the Necromancer I use to be. In the same way one of the main things that makes an Elementist an Elementist is Energy Storage. If we all of a sudden decided that having an attribute to boost your overall power pool was 'too much' and 'nerf' it to ...let's say you only got 1/5 the benefit per point in Energy Storage as you use to, all the Elementist would feel just as violated.

And I am so happy for the Minion Masters out there that had their Animation Spell Costs lowered. But, I am not a Minion Master and I got nothing to help 'ease my pain'. Not that a reduction in spell costs would have made me feel any less violated.

Next to Elementists, Necromancers have some of the highest cast timers around, without the high end damage. For the pure Blood Magic Necromancers among us, we do not get fancy spells that kill out right. In most cases, I have to use 5 or more spells to bring something down far enough that degen can finish it off. I am rewarded for this effort by a kick back in the form of Soul Reaping power regen.

To add insult to injury, Necromancers are liberally labelled as a 'support class'. As some have already stated, this was mostly because we can add skills from a second profession to help the team because we have a constant, if unpredictable, power source. A good Mesmer on an opposing team cut the big overpowering benefit to Soul Reaping (pre-nerf) to nil. But we aren't talking PvP we are talking PvE, aren't we? And there aren't any Mesmer crits out there, huh?

Has the nerf made me useless or unable to do things I use to be able to do? No. I can still go out and PvE just like I did before. I just don't do it as effectively and I have to build my team to support my new handicap. I also have to consider the logic in putting points into Soul Reaping. Why bother with Signet of Lost Souls when I can spend those points in a Mesmer Attribute to manage my power? It's not like there are many Soul Reaping skills other than SoLS that I'd need to worry with fueling.

I use Monk as a second profession because I like Rebirth. Nothing more. I started as a N/E and switched to Monk after I ascended Prophecies. Maybe I'll go back to it, what's the point in playing as a pure class when the mechanics of the game changes to outright prevent it? Or if not prevent then at least retard it to tediousness?

Soul Reaping Pre-Nerf overpowered? Maybe. For the Minion Masters, most definitely. Blood and Curse Necromancers were still married to their casting and skill recharge timers. What good is having the power when you are waiting for your skills to recharge? Versus anything with Spell Breaker and all you can do is wand it until it wears off then hope you can interrupt it when it comes up again. Nevermind you still spend the power while Spell Breaker is active and...well it's not dying so your power isn't building up anytime soon.

My point is, if you are going to take something as fundamental as Soul Reaping to a single profession, and change it because you suddenly realized it's 'overpowered' because of a certain type of build, maybe you should have first considered just re-making the entire profession. Start from SCRATCH to find a more 'elegant' way of fixing the problem.

For instance, instead of putting a timer on how often you can 'soul reap', keep it the way it was. But in lieu of the 6 minions cap, tie that in to the ranks of Soul Reaping. 1 Minion per every 2 ranks in Soul Reaping (6 Max). This means the Minion Master would have to invest in Soul Reaping to get the most Minions. Then give the Minions a maintainence cost (lose .5 energy per second per minion). So, at 6 minions you would only regen 1 energy per second. Then change Minions and Spirits to only half the energy gain per death for every rank in Soul Reaping. And to mitigate the 'harshness' of this 'change' add a Soul Reaping (or Death Magic) Skill that gives the caster 1 point of energy every time one of thier controlled minions lands a critical hit.

Anyway, I am tired, that's my 'two cents'.

TabascoSauce · May 03, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mortius Madius

I did not care for the nerf to Soul Reaping, but not for any of the reasons I have read so far on these forums.

I didn't care for it, because I don't like walking around with the word 'nerfed' on my forehead.

Well, the silence from ANet is not necessarily a bad sign - there was no notice about the SR nerf, so maybe there will be no notice on their badly needed fix.

But they may also be just waiting for the furor to die down and for us to give up like sheep.

That is why we all need to keep posting. If possible, have your friends come in here and lets all have discussions about how SR is broken. If we keep the threads on how SR is broken alive and on top of the stack, that makes it much harder for them to ignore us.

I like necros, but this timer is just bad and wrong.

Wanna see a reaction? Lets talk about how Zhed is better than Olias as a necro, that really gets them riled up.

Just load them both up with Soul barbs, SS, Insidious Parasite, Reckless haste, SoLS or GoLE, Mark of Pain, and a rez signet. Top them off with Curses and SR/En Storage only, and see who does better!

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Alleji · May 03, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberjanet

Try the new soul reaping primary attribute...

Soul reaping is still the best or second-best primary in the game (after expertise).

It's just not "the best by a mile" anymore, and that's hardly a reason to complain.

Series · May 03, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Soul reaping is still the best or second-best primary in the game (after expertise).

It's just not "the best by a mile" anymore, and that's hardly a reason to complain.

Riddle me this: What do Soul Reaping (old at least), Expertise, Critical Strikes, Leadership, and Mysticism have in common?

Free, conditional energy regenerating. That's 5 of the 10 primary attributes, based on bringing back energy. All 5 of those professions never had to invest in energy management to play effectively. Occassionally Necromancers would, even BEFORE the nerf, just because sometimes things just wont die enough!!! Coincidently, each has something to do with the profession:

Soul Reaping: Necromancers thrive on death, so they get energy on deaths.
Expertise: Rangers use many attacks, skills, and nonmagical things- all of which cost less thanks to expertise.
Critical Strikes: You get energy back FOR ATTACKING. That's a pretty good deal.
Leadership: Get energy back for shouting.
Mysticism: Get energy back for using enchantments.

So why aren't all these things limited to one activation per 5 seconds? You could say that it is because they aren't overpowered (which is very debatable, as leadership, critical strikes, and expertise provide similar returns to soul reaping- of course the real reason is because of the soul reaping exploit, but shall we continue?). Well consider this Mr. Nerf-Necros:

Leadership, Mysticism, and Critical strikes have some of the best skills for their respective classes IN THE GAME bound to them. As does expertise to a lesser- yet still notable- degree. Now here comes the difference. What does Soul Reaping have different than the others?

-2 non-elite skills bound to it. Two. 5 skills in total. And of these 5 skills, arguably 2 are useful. Maybe 3. So while every one of these "infinite energy" attributes has amazing skills bound to it, soul reaping barely has ANY.

-Soul Reaping provides more of a return, but is OUT of the player's control. Soul Reaping happens when things die and things don't die when you need them to. This is why Soul Reaping was balanced before. What made it imbalanced? The ability to control it. Soul Reaping is not overpowered at all in any way shape or form until you add in the ability to trigger it on will. Yes, I'm talking about spirits and minions.

Using a spirit and minion to activate your team's soul reaping makes your team overpowered. Soul Reaping is not overpowered at all compared to other primaries until the ability to manipulate it comes into play.

The only solution: Remove the ability to manipulate it. You no longer gain energy from summoned creatures you did not create (broaden to include allied pets if you wish?). Can I get a gg? This solution perfectly solves the problem with soul reaping in its entirety, removes the possibility of any exploit of soul reaping ever again, and makes all the players happy. Happy players is still a good thing, right?

TabascoSauce · May 03, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Can I get a gg?

gg

Awesome post sir.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Numa Pompilius · May 04, 2007, 10:24 AM // 10:24

In my opinion the fundamental problem for mesmers is the energy management, a result of that the role of the mesmer has changed.

Originally mesmers were intended to steal their energy from the enemy, and originally that was a viable way to fuel up. After the mesmer energy denial nerf that is no longer the case - leaving mesmers without effective energy management.

Necro energy management is far superior. Not only do the necros get a decent amount of energy from (nearly) every kill, but they've also got the godly Signet of Lost Souls: 8 energy + 80 health every 8 seconds if there's enemies below 50% health - and it's tied to necro primary attribute.

Compare that to Leech Signet: 13 energy every 30 seconds provided you succeed in interrupting a spell - and it's not tied to mesmer primary attribute, so while it's a good skill for secondary mesmers it's not a reason to make a primary one.

Signet of Lost Souls is as good as the mesmer Mantra of Recall, but non-elite. It's godly. Use it.

IMO, mesmers need:
1) shorter recharge times on many skills, especially interrupts and energy management spells to make them comparable to, say, their ranger counterparts, and especially considering that hexes get removed much faster than mesmers can apply them OR
2) lower cost. Pretty much everything costs 10-15 energy, and mesmer energy management is the worst of all professions.

Or a combination of both. Also,

3) a viable AoE spell - like I've said, Spiteful Spirit would be choice. It is out of place in the necro profession, but would make sense in the mesmer profession.

As for Necros - I still don't get what people are complaining about. My minionmasters function just as well now as they did before the nerf. If you need 2-3 more pips of energy, just bring SoLS.

TabascoSauce · May 04, 2007, 11:08 AM // 11:08

You know, I like your ideas to buff Mesmers, so we agree. Anything to make them better is just grand in my opinion.

But you are wrong re: soul reaping.

This quick and dirty is all from the 1900 post thread.

1) SR energy return when compared to other classes passive energy management (like say rangers) is equivalent in terms of EPS
2) SR is inferior vs other classes passive EN management because it requires you to be winning and killing enemies to use it properly
3) Obviously SR triggering off of friends going down is a losing situation, so that leaves:
4) SR can be exploited by artificially forcing minions and spirits into a death-state by repeatedly summoning them.
5) Close the Exploit, and PvP is satisfied, PvE is untouched. PvP was the only place where the exploit was used, as PvE monsters are targets that die just fine. PvP had to "cheat" to get greater numbers of deaths.
6) PvE balance is a joke, what with the lv 28 "half skill time for use" monsters

All this is summed up by Carinae Dragonblood. "Do not punish us for knocking down PvE bot-enemies efficiently", or something like that.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

FoxBat · May 04, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

2) SR is inferior vs other classes passive EN management because it requires you to be winning and killing enemies to use it properly

If things aren't dying left and right (they usually are)... then you aren't hitting the timer.

stardustjian · May 07, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

when bones faces enemies lv 24 what will happen .
the MM is so weak in Nf

soeccentric · May 09, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

when i get interrupted lets say be a dryder or a mesmer while trying to cast a minion which happens more often then not, my energy depeletes. I usually try to exploit all the corpses now but i'm just not fast enough, or i don't have enough energy and when everything is dead how do i sols then. My pug is already moving on so i desperatly try to keep my minions alive along with healing my self. with uh little to no energy. my minions die pretty quickly in battle when i am front line usually i try to be, i'm saccing my self to near death and yes i do use healing breeze, i find it to be the best heal for a necro but not anymore because of energy costs. anyways there are mobs that steal corpses from me faster then i can rez minions i still lose that energy. I used to have 4 different kinds of minions just so i could rez them faster but now not so much i gotta bring energy management and i gotta time it just right. Sorry but i'm not that 'elite' of a player i don't feel that i should have to be. I just think gw is fun necros were my favorite class now not so much. I just like to unwind at the end of the day kill some mobs. the sr nerf has made this much slower and much more painful. sigh can't they just not gain the energy from spirits? we didn't have spirit energy gain before in prophies why do we need it now? i hate waiting every 5 secs. 5 secs in a game seems like eternity when your a clutz and you can't get your sols timed right. oh well w/e i play rappelz now but i would like to start playing my necro agian once they have a more "elegant" solution.

Shadis · May 09, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

What I don't understand is why Necromancers are whining so much about this Soul Reaping "nerf". You mean they actually have to pay attention to energy now? Wow, what a concept! Welcome to the "Every Other Profession Club" Necros!

There really isn't a problem here. The fact that they are actually lowering the Necromancer's skill costs slowly but surely reinforces that idea. As if the Necromancer wasn't powerful enough already? Let's drop SS to 10 energy!

I just find it difficult to fathom where they are coming from exactly in this mass whining I see. Even after reading posts lambasting the nerf to Soul Reaping I do not see it. So you have to wait 5 seconds between deaths to gain energy. Imagine that... Look at some of the other energy management skills, a lot of them have a LONG recharge time and the net gain is something around what Soul Reaping offers, except yours is "free" and things die a lot so that's not a condition you have to worry about not having around to fuel your energy.

fntmx1 · May 09, 2007, 06:07 AM // 06:07

It's OK people! There are other games out there!